Can you explain to me the differences between MFX1 and MFX2 and the reverb, and chorus.

I read the chapter on MFX, but it's still not that clear, what's going on. I usually don't mess with effects.

It would be nice to have a step by step guide, or suggestion, and something to experiment with and have a grasp on what's going on.

Thank you.

The MFX are what is termed ‘insert effects’ whereas the reverb and chorus are ‘send’ effects.

Basically, the reverb and chorus (which can also be delay instead) are the usual type of effects you get with a mixer, where every channel has a ‘send’ and the ‘return’ from the effect is blended back into the mix.

But the MFX effects are the type where the entire signal from the Part (or multiple Parts) is run through the effect, or ‘inserted’ into the signal path. So, for instance, a guitar amp simulator would affect the entire signal, not just get a portion of it ‘sent’ to. However, there’s a certain degree of crossover because some effects (like the MFX choruses and reverbs etc.) have a balance control where you can mix the effected signal with the dry…

But in practice, you tend to use the send effects for stuff most things need like a bit of reverb and either chorus or delay, and then the MFX for things one specific Part needs, like a tremolo for a Wurlitzer piano, or a phaser for a Rhodes, or an amp sim for an electric guitar, etc..

If the MFX Part Link parameter is on, calling up a factory sound will load a factory default MFX setting for that Part (but you only have two for all four Keyboard Parts, so you will have to decide which needs them on a per-Performance basis… normally they are set to be on UPR 1/2). You can learn a lot about the MFX by taking a look at their settings, turning them off to hear the difference, and also messing with the two MFX adjust sliders (the brown ones) which usually are set to adjust something on the fly in the MFX.

Although you CAN route multiple Parts into one MFX, be aware that there is no separate wet/dry mix for each Part, so if for instance you sent both UPR Parts to a phaser, you couldn’t have a little phaser on one and a lot on the other. One mix for the entire MFX. And there’s no ‘stacking’ of MFX’s… you can’t run the output of one MFX into the input of another. So you couldn’t for instance run through the phaser into an amp simulator. This is why you’ll see some ‘combo’ effects like PHZ>DIST which do both effects in one MFX, but usually with less control and less quality (as one MFX is having to do both effects).

I know it seems a bit complicated at first, but do some playing around and you’ll get it quickly. A great place to find out what you can do is the styles themselves. There are three MFX dedicated to just the Style/SMF section (accessible through the Makeup Tools) but virtually none of the factory styles use them! So you can experiment putting different MFX on different Parts and just listening to what they do while the style plays…

Try a phaser on a Rhodes. Try a flanger on a synth sound, mess with the parameters. Try an Exciter on a brass section to make it pop out of the mix. Sky’s the limit…

Or try my favorite use of the MFX…

I HATE sampled distorted guitars! That’s not how distorted guitars sound… notes aren’t distorted individually and then combined. Each combination of notes you play and each dynamic you play at distorts in a different way with a real guitar and amplifier. So try this… find a rock style with a distorted guitar Part. Using the Makeup Tools, change the distorted guitar to a clean one (Strat, Tele, Les Paul, whatever you feel like!) and then insert the Amp Simulator MFX on that Part. You then go into the sim and, while the style plays (this is a good time to use the chord sequencer so you aren’t stuck listening to the same chord over and over!) you can play around with changing the amp type (maybe a big Marshall stack, or maybe a Fender Twin Reverb, or perhaps a Soldano amp, experiment!) and then the amount of distortion, the overdrive, the EQ shapes, etc. etc..

What you end up with is usually FAR more realistic that the awful sampled distorted guitars. After all, that’s EXACTLY what guitarists do. Start with a clean guitar, put it through an amp!

The MFX are an incredibly useful way to make a sound, a style, a sequence totally YOURS. Don’t settle for sounding like everybody else! The BK-9 sounds damn good out of the box. But you CAN make it sound a whole lot better by getting creative with the MFX…

Wow, I have to print this out and include it with my BK-9 notes, thank you Diki.

I'm going to read this couple of times what you mentioned above, I'll have to study it.

I guess it's like cooking, you have to know which seasoning goes well with the ingredients that you are using.

It's a kind of magic ... a little bit more of it or less, and it can make it sound great or totally useless...

The most important piece of gear you own is on each side of your head…

Your ears! 🦻🏻

There really are no rules. If it sounds good, it IS good 😎

I spent some time looking at these Multi Effects (or more like hearing them). There are a total of 84 Multi effects, described in detail in Tone and Drum Kit list.

Question: Why are there two MFX-es? >>> MFX1 and MFX2 when they both share the same 84 multi effects? Couldn't they just call it MFX, and that's it, and apply it to Upper1, Upper2, Lower and Manual Bass?

I also noticed: There are 12 Reverb Types and 6 Chorus types. If the Reverb or Chorus value have a "0" zero value in the MiXER, than they won't sound. Well pretty obvious, I guess, but I am like a 5 year old when it comes to this.

Anyway it needs a value, that value I guess is the amount of reverb or chorus that needs to be applied to each Tone Part.

Actually I tried to hear the 6 chorus types, but I heard no difference since in the mixer the chorus for the selected Tone Part was set to zero, once I increased the value I was able to hear things.

One more thing, once you go in the MFX1 sub-menu, you'll see MFX1 Switch (I get this one), next MFX1 Type (I get this one too), next MFX1 Edit (I understand that you can do some editing of each effect, now next is where I'm totally lost called MFX1 Controls, I mean what???

So MFX1 Controls are totally Chinese to me, and there are two sliders on the left side for MFX1 and MFX2. What am I going to use them for?

Try to explain it to me like to a 5 years old, why is that we have MFX1 and MFX2 when they are identical, and what are these MFX controls?

Thank you:)

Okay, here are some basics…

There are two MFX for the four Keyboard Parts (and three more for the Song/Style section). Each one is an independent FX processor. You do not ‘send’ from all of the Parts to it (unlike the main effects Reverb and Chorus processors), but choose which of the Keyboard Parts are routed THROUGH it in their entirety.

Having two MFX means that, for instance, your Electric Piano can get sent to one MFX doing a Flanger, and your clavinet could get sent to a wah-wah AT THE SAME TIME. One overall MFX would mean an either/or, not both.

Think of them as effect pedals like a guitarist uses. They mostly each do just one thing (although their are a few algorithms that have dual effects, like CHO>DIST etc.).

If you look in the Performance edit for each Keyboard Part, you will see a field that allows you to select which MFX (or none) it goes through. This is where you decide (per Performance) how your two MFX are allocated. The default is for UPR 1 & 2 to be routed to MFX1 & MFX2 respectively. But you can change this. Be also aware that in default, the UPR1/2 MFX Link is set to On, so when you select a Tone for either Upper Part, it loads a default MFX for that sound. You might have heard this, some electric pianos come with a default MFX phaser, for instance, or some clarinets load up a wah-wah…

Be aware that, if this Link is on, even if you have set say MFX1 to affect the LWR Part, and set it up carefully, and spent an hour tweaking all the settings, if you then go and select a new UPR1 Tone, it will change the effect and lose all your settings! 🤬. So either temporarily turn off the Link, or make sure you have your UPR Parts already selected before you spend much time tweaking the MFX assigned to the Lower..!

The difference between the reverbs and choruses in the send effects and the MFX reverbs and choruses is that the mixer Send effects can be applied to all Parts in different amounts (one Part can have a little, another a lot) but the reverbs and choruses in the MFX are only applied to the Parts assigned to them, and it’s one global wet/dry mix to everything passing through the MFX.

You will see most MFX reverbs, choruses etc. have a parameter for mix, balance, amount, whatever each one calls it. And this is where you adjust how much of that effect is applied to the dry sound.

But… Most (all?) MFX effects have a send to the global reverb and chorus Send Effects usually at the top of the edit page. This is where it gets a bit complicated… but let’s try to make it simple. On the whole, in most cases, you want a sound to go through the effect you selected (let’s use a guitar amplifier on a guitar sound as an example), and then the output of THAT to get some reverb. So you set the reverb send in the MFX edit page… BUT… you need to go to the main mixer and turn off the send to the reverb for that Part, otherwise, what you get is the sound of the uneffected guitar in the reverb send along with the distorted guitar’s reverb as well.

In other words, the mixer send to the main reverb is ‘pre’ MFX.

So you usually, if you are using MFX’s that affect the entire sound (like most of them do) have to think carefully about how you are sending to the main reverb. The truth is, most of the time, most MFX’s, you need to shut off the mixer sends to the reverb/chorus, and then adjust those sends in the edit page of the MFX.

To be honest, about the only time you’re likely to use the MFX reverb is the very rare time you want a totally different kind of reverb on a sound for a special effect. Say a gated reverb on a synth sound or a super long reverb on a piano without it being on everything else (which it would be if you set the main reverb up like that!). Most of the time, the MFX are best at things like flangers, guitar effects, enhancers, compressors (although I’m not that enthusiastic about the compressor algorithms), and other types of effects you really only want on one sound.

I hope these posts have helped, but it rather sounds like you have pretty much zero experience with mixers and effects in the first place because most of this is pretty basic. It might not hurt to go find a beginners book or website on mixing fundamentals, for studio and live stage, because, in a way, that’s really what you are doing here… An arranger is an entire studio full of everything needed for recording and live music. Mixers, effects, mic preamps, final multiband compressors and EQ…

Might as well start to understand the basics… it will pay off in the end.

One last post about the MFX controls. In their edit page, AFTER you have selected which MFX’s you are going to use, you will find a range of a few parameters (sadly, not all) that you can select for the slider to adjust, and the range that the slider adjusts it. Here are a few examples of how it can be used…

You’ll notice that the most of the electric pianos with phasers on them, the MFX slider is set to Rate, so you can adjust the speed of the phaser in real time. This was a common technique back in the day,

Electric guitars run through the distortion often have the slider set to adjust final volume. This is because moving the main Part volume slider doesn’t really adjust the output of the effected sound, it just adjusts how loud the guitar is going INTO the amp. But the amp is compressing and distorting the sound so much, it doesn’t really affect the final volume much. Turning down the input at the Part slider simply makes the sound less distorted. But if you want lots of distortion but it not loud, you have to turn down the amplifier’s output, not the guitar. So you’d do it at the MFX slider….

That’s a couple, now every time you play a sound, wiggle the sliders and see what they do! Not every sound is affected much, but most do something. When you hear something, go to the MFX edit page and look at what it is set to. Gradually you’ll get an idea of how they can be used, then eventually you’ll come up with ideas about how YOU want to play with a sound’s effects while you are performing.

BTW, the same goes for those CC1/2 sliders. See what they do! Figure out how to use them. 🎹😎

I read what you wrote Diki, at least 8 times, my head is as big as a hot air balloon. Unfortunately I don't have much experience with mixers, but I'd like to learn what this BK-9 is capable of, and how to operate/control it.

So let's see, even if I won't be using any of these effects, at least I'll know which button, or value controls what.

This is what I understand so far:

By pushing the MFX button on the control panel >> Tone Part Effects comes up on the display >>> here you can adjust the Reverb Type, the Chorus Type and the MFX for Upper 1, Upper 2, Lower and Manual Bass.

Press the EXIT button

In order to hear the Reverb and the Chorus you must push the MIXER button, here you can adjust the REVERB and CHORUS levels, if they are set to zero.

Now! For adjusting the REVERB, CHORUS and MFX for the Rhythm parts push MAKE UP TOOLS >>> Left display shows the instruments used >>> On the RIGHT display you can adjust the REVERB, CHORUS and the MFX (which is "A", "B" and "C"), and the MFX TYPEs.

On the LEFT display you can go down to COMMON, and adjust the REVERB and CHORUS level globally.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

I wonder what "A", "B" and "C" is, would that be the three MFX for the Rhythm?

90% of what you need is taken care of by the mixer global send effects. Reverb especially, you need a dab of that on just about everything except the bass part if you are playing LH bass. It ‘beds’ it all together, makes the parts all connect, and sound like they are playing together in one space. You know, like a band!

The MFX are more like special effects or guitar pedals… just used on the one sound to make it stand out. A phaser on this, a flanger on that, a guitar amp on something else.

And yes, the A, B & C MFX are the Style/SMF insert effects (and the Style/SMF section has its own separate global send reverb and chorus section). You assign whatever Part you want to them in the Makeup Tools.

It honestly sounds like you are trying to run before you walk. Before you overwhelm yourself with MFX intricacies, concentrate on just getting the Mixer sends properly understood. Here’s a little tip. To be honest, I don’t think many sounds need chorus. Either there’s an already chorused sound in the Tones (possibly courtesy of an MFX preset) or you can assign an MFX to the sound that needs it. But ECHO is something put on most lead sounds to one degree or another.

So I tend to switch the mixer send chorus to delay rather than chorus. Then go to the chorus edit page and set the sync to ‘Note’ for each delay. Now, no matter what the tempo, the delay syncs to the beat, which is very common in pop music. Play around with the note values (1/4 note, 1/8th note, 1/4 note triplet etc.) and find a value that works for the music, then try sending a solo sound via the mixer into it. Cool, eh?

Don’t forget, there’s a chorus send parameter on every MFX too, so you can put delay on sounds AFTER they have gone through the MFX. This is how you can use the guitar Amp Sim to get a screaming guitar lead and then put it through some delay for that classic solo guitar sound!

Main thing is, baby steps… don’t overwhelm yourself. For now, until you have a burning desire to dig deep into the editing, just let the UPR1&2 MFX LINK take care of pulling up an appropriate effect on your lead sounds and just play around with the MFX sliders…

On a final note, I edited your last post and removed the divider underscores as it stretched the page width too wide and made the threads hard to read. I hope you don’t mind…

Not quite right…! Each Part page of the Makeup Tools has a reverb and chorus send adjust parameter. You don’t need to go to the COMMON page to adjust reverb globally (unless ALL the style Parts are too wet!), you go to each Part individually and adjust only the ones you need.

I don't mind the editing, not at all, thank you.

Lot's of stuff cleared up in my head, it makes more sense, I can double check things like what MFX is being used for each Real Tone Part, I had no clue there were 84 of them, I didn't know that before, I only messed around with Reverb and Chorus. And like you said I don't add much Chorus maybe a level 20, Reverb a 63 sometimes 80.

Remember? I had that problem with going from one performance setting to next and you mentioned that there might be a different MFX type setting for each performance setting. That's when I looked more into this MFX and now I know where they are and what they control, including the Real Tone parts and the Rhythm. Great Success!

But on the other hand, after messing around and trying to hear things out, I noticed that my BK9 was acting up, which it does every once in a while especially since I updated to 1.06 Version. So I did a Factory Reset, and when I turned it on, it played a piano sound at start up, like someone hitting the C4(or in that range) pretty loud, and that's it, than it boots up.

However; I noticed that couple of my performance settings with dual layer sounds, let's say Upper1 = Piano , Upper2 = Strings, when I select one of these dual layer performance settings, and hit one single key let's say C4, Piano sound is good, but the String sound is like a semitone higher than the piano sound.(No Split involved, Split is OFF, so is Lower and Manual Bass)

This happened to me couple of times in the past, it was very awkward, especially on stage during a performance. So I noticed that to go around this problem I have to push the Upper 1 (Part ON/OFF) switch twice, than the string sound on Upper2 returns to normal, being on the same frequency as the piano sound. And let me tell you, there is no Transpose involved, or Octave shift applied in these performance settings. So it must be a software glitch.

Weird, huh?? So that's what usually happens when I do a factory reset. In the past this problem went away, kind of like with a sick man who heals after a while, but it's annoying that I have to remember to push Upper1 twice before I play a single song, otherwise the layer sound would be a semitone higher.

Also it happened before where a single sound would get locked and would sound till I would turn OFF the keyboard.

I have no clue why is it doing it, but all these problems occurred after I updated to 1.06, never had these problems before. And I read somewhere in a review, where one guy was talking about the same exact issues that I described above.

Oh, one more thing. I usually set "A" to 432 HZ GLobally(not 440 HZ), but it doesn't matter, as soon as I play a MIDI file that I recorded on the BK9, it shifts the Real Tone parts and the Midi file back to A = 440 HZ.

The style part works fine with 432 HZ, but the Midi file overrides my A = 432 HZ.

Any idea why is it doing it? and not only this but the other problems that I described above?

(Sorry I changed the subject a little bit, but this has been an issue for a while now)

My v1.06 update has never given me those problems. Strange. It also never makes a sound on boot-up. Silent as the grave!

Try this if you get the strings in a layer at the wrong pitch… wiggle the bender fully both ways. Perhaps it is faulty? I have found that the benders tend to wear out if used heavily, like I do. Perhaps yours is affecting the string sound. Check the Performance edit and see if the bender is enabled for both Parts. If it is the bender, the good news is that those are still available from Roland, and putting them in yourself is fairly simple, no soldering or major disassembly, just the screws to open the case and four screws to remove the bender assembly. Unless a complete technophobe, you should be able to do it yourself…

As to the 432Hz tuning, what is likely happening is that the SMF has a MIDI Reset command at the start of it, a short sysex command that resets all values back to nominal. It was a common practice with commercial SMF creators to ensure that nothing like CC values or pitch bends etc. from the previous file were left hanging around at the start of the next one.

The solution isn’t easy, it will involve using a computer to insert a pitch change sysex code for the 432hz after the GS Reset command on all your sequences. This is going to be a pain if you have a lot of files. Now might be a good time to decide if you REALLY need to work at 432hz… Are you playing with anybody else, or do you have a piano tuned to 432hz next to your arranger?

If you can work at 440hz, you’ll save yourself a ton of work… it’s unlikely you’ll be able to hear the difference unless you are playing something else as well. Why did you choose the old pitch reference? I guarantee that whatever pianos were sampled in the first place were sampled at 440hz, so you’re not getting the strings and body resonances of a 432hz piano in the sample!

432HZ >> For me it sounds better, more natural, doesn't require as much Volume as with 440HZ. Some musicians believe in it, some don't. I do!

Here is a youtube video called Cymatics Frequency Experience. The shape that the sand particles pick up with 432 HZ are much nicer than the 440HZ.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wE6A3rmuet0&ab_channel=thisWorldisBeautiful

Well, as long as you are going to be okay with endlessly editing every sequence you use, every audio track you ever play with, make sure that every musician you play with feels the same way you do about 432hz and is willing or able to retune, and every piano you play comes with an on-call tuner to detune it and then tune it back up again after you leave for everybody else who doesn’t feel the way you do, you are good to go! 🙄😂

Best of luck finding loop libraries recorded at 432hz! And don’t try to kid yourself that merely pitch transposing them down to 432hz from 440 will give you the same moiré pattern in sand as one recorded at that pitch. Remember, the pitch may have moved, but the formants will still be inextricably tied to the original pitch.

Bottom line… you have chosen a path that few other people care enough about or can even recognize to be worth the bother and inconvenience you are going to inflict on yourself and everybody you play with. If you have no intention to ever play with somebody else, sure, you want to create a mountain of work for yourself, have at it!

But now might be a good time to think about whether you wish to inconvenience everyone else for something next to nobody gives a rats about..? 🎹🤔

Diki,
I have to say that I like that you're one of the few who dare to 🎵 Tell it like it is... 🎵 without too soft wrapping.😁

Thanks Gunnar. I’m sorry, but the pandemic has lessened my ability to be that amused by contrariness! If one’s decisions can negatively affect others, they are worth reviewing…

I think something like this is well worth testing on oneself with a well structured double blind test. Intellectually, it may be understandable why one might agree with 432hz, but until you’ve tested your own ability to distinguish 100% accurately the difference between 440 and 432hz, plus tested your audience’s ability, it is a long lonely road to go down. I guess if people listened to music by looking at sand patterns rather than just listening, it might be worth it!

I am highly skeptical of the idea of moiré patterns being any indicator of musical quality. I think it’s a better indicator of the quality of sand! And, bottom line, that’s not how our ears work… sound is detected by cilia moving forwards and backwards, not by visually analyzing a pattern in a substrate. I hate to say it, but backing up a solely sonic decision with a visual metaphor gets uncomfortably close to confirmation bias.

Truth is, a proper well designed double blind test is the ONLY way to prove to yourself whether you truly CAN tell the difference. I took one years ago and failed. And my ears haven’t got any better since..!

But note, I DID say that, as long as it doesn’t inconvenience anyone but yourself, it’s a decision that is pretty immaterial. And if there’s one thing about arranger players in general, few of us play much with anyone else!

The only potential problem I foresee for Dengizich is that if he does do the work, adds the tuning code to hundreds of SMF’s, pitch transposes all his audio loops, he is going to have to keep a running backup of all his Performances with 440hz resources in case he has to play in a situation that can’t accommodate his decision to play noticeably flat. So, first, a mountain of work, then another one to set everything back!

Remember, it’s likely that once you create a 432hz SMF, you’ll still be likely to perhaps want to Makeup Tools it a bit (I find myself making small adjustments all the time to MIDI files even after years of using them!). Now, with two files for different intonations, you’ve got to go and do the same thing to its sister file. Work, work, work!

I'm a one man band, so no one is going to be affected by my 432 HZ tuning other than the audience, but since it requires a lot of work, I will keep it at 440 Hz. I just wanted to know what's the reason that is changing from a 432 to a 440 when a MIDI file is being played. Obviously when I play with other musicians I don't expect them to down tune to 432Hz, I keep it at 440.:)

Never assume that what you are now will be what you will always be!

Particularly when it comes to painting yourself into a corner with technical stuff. Data lasts forever, and sometimes it’s worth accepting a mild inconvenience now for potentially massively less work in the future to undo something you think may be inconsequential now.

Yes, I agree, it’s a shame that you can’t override an SMF’s master tuning on a global basis, but this was a decision the MMA made nearly forty years ago when they set the standards for MIDI. 440Hz was, and still continues to this day as the almost worldwide tuning standard, and with the limited capability of electronics back then, I guess they had to settle for the simpler solution.

I’d still be interested in whether you’ve done a proper double blind test to test whether you really CAN tell the difference without a sand pattern. It is so easy for the mind to convince the body they are hearing and seeing things they aren’t simply because the brain is telling them they OUGHT to hear or see it!

Be cautious of sites that advocate for 432hz. A TRUE double blind test makes sure the listener has no way to compare directly, and would make you listen to atonal noise for long enough that the brain could not remember the pitch of the previous example. Only that way are you finding out whether you can truly distinguish a pitch from its sound, not from comparison to another sound.

Maybe you’re one of the lucky ones (or cursed ones, depending on how much playing at 440hz might hurt!), but it never hurts to find out if an aesthetic decision turns out to be an actual one. Especially if it involves making a lot of extra work for yourself!